Greek myth - prophecies
Feb. 20th, 2021 05:21 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
sparklightSome thoughts about the three different prophecies that tell of potential downfall of a divine father by his son(s), and the effects of these. What we have to keep in mind first, of course (because patriarchy), is that any daughters aren’t in the running for the cosmic throne. They can help their brothers, and thus be real threats, but they can’t take the crown themselves. This is just what we have to work with and accept for these prophecies to make sense from what the characters choose to do in response to them.
So, first you’ve got Kronos:
“[...] that no other of the proud sons of Ouranos should hold the kingly office amongst the deathless gods. For he learned from Gaia and starry Ouranos that he was destined to be overcome by his own son,” (Theogony)
I always thought it kind of strange that Kronos then ate his daughters, since they can’t, by the very structure of the prophecy, be a direct threat. But they can assist their brothers. Even if Kronos hadn’t swallowed them and even treated them exemplary, there’s no guarantee they wouldn’t have been appalled at their baby brothers being swallowed, and/or sided with Rhea. So down they go.
Another point is here also that it’s his own son - the mother doesn’t matter. Of course, the simple solution of not having sex with her at all is clearly impossible, so he persists...
And his solution is something no one else has done before. Even his father “only” imprisoned the older siblings, which Kronos could have done himself. But he knows his children could be released from Tartaros, so instead he chooses an action that, by its very intent, hopefully will nullify any offspring. If we consider that these gods are Deathless, and very, very hard to meaningfully kill, this might be one of the methods by which it can actually be achieved, but even that is clearly not simple or quick, since they end up rescued.
Next is Zeus;
“[...] for very wise children were destined to be born of her, first the maiden bright-eyed Tritogeneia, equal to her father in strength and in wise understanding; but afterwards she was to bear a son of overbearing spirit[,] king of gods and men.” (Theogony, Hesiod - another translation uses “overmastering” instead of “overbearing”)
With Metis first. Here, the point isn’t the father (aside from that the daughter born of Metis will match her father in strength and wisdom). Rather it’s Metis herself, presumably regardless of whoever the father is, who will bring a son who will be powerful and apparently bad ruler.
Zeus chooses to mimic his father, but compared to Kronos, and possibly because Zeus knows what Kronos did, he does it better than his father did. Metis does not escape (I’d go with that he sort of absorbs her, in some way). Athena, of course, survives to be born, perhaps because Metis ensures her survival (a more metaphorical armour given her, if you will).
Zeus couldn’t have chosen to just not have sex with Metis and leave her, before any children at all, or after Athena was born. Metis’ first son will spell terrible things for his own rule and reasonably everyone else too. She could willingly refrain from sex, of course (and might even have been willing to!), but we all know that doesn’t necessarily guarantee she might not have ended up having said son anyway.
(For me in my fics, I also leaned on the fact that Zeus is young in this instance, they have just won a ten year war that would’ve ended terribly if the new Olympians had lost, and here is immediately a threat that promises more of the same - he just lashes out, no real thought to it compared to Kronos.)
Obviously, this is still a terrible thing to do (especially because/if Zeus does it more effectively than Kronos did), but at least Metis can defend herself as it happens, compared to defenseless babies.
“For in their midst wise-counselled Themis told that it was ruled of fate that the sea-goddess should bring forth a son, of strength mightier than his father, whose hand should launch a shaft more powerful than the bolt of thunder or the fearsome trident, if she wed with Zeus or with his brothers.” (Isthmian Ode 8, Pindar)
Then there is Thetis. This time, it’s not just one or the other parent that matters; both of them do. Thetis specifically carries the same potential as Metis does, but it also relies on the strength of the father - the logical solution can for once be followed. Both Zeus and Poseidon refrain from having sex with her.
But, it can’t just be left at that. Thetis could have sex (willing or unwilling) with someone, or marry someone, who could still produce a son strong enough to be stronger than Zeus. So, to ensure that doesn’t happen, Thetis can’t be left alone to her own devices; the man who will produce this one son with Thetis must be someone guaranteed not to be stronger than the gods in general, or the three sons of Kronos in particular.
Hence, she has to marry a mortal.
I do really like the detail that Thetis rejects Zeus specifically because Hera is her foster mother, but that can easily exist parallel to the prophecy and as soon as Zeus finds out about it, saddling Thetis with a mortal becomes not just a solution to a personal insult, but cosmically important.
On the other hand, Thetis is still a goddess nymph, so she gets as noble a mortal as can be found.
Some brief extra discussion of Zeus and Athena as it occurred to me:
Going back to Athena and Zeus here at the end, you could be exceedingly cynical and say Zeus deliberately made her a “favourite” to ensure she is kept as docile as possible and has no reason to make any threatening noise.
I don’t accept this, because firstly, Zeus has no reason to. Athena alone isn’t a cosmic threat, (accepting that only a male can hold the throne) no matter that she is as strong and wise as he is. She would only be a potential threat if her little brother of Metis had been born. He never is. Zeus has made sure of it, and while Athena very pointedly joins Hera in her uprising against Zeus, it certainly doesn’t succeed (and I wouldn’t expect it to necessarily succeed if she’d attach herself to one of her brothers, since the point is very much Metis’ son).
Athena as (one of, with Apollo as the other) Zeus’ favourite is definitely meant to be genuine, with no backhanded reasons behind it.
So, first you’ve got Kronos:
“[...] that no other of the proud sons of Ouranos should hold the kingly office amongst the deathless gods. For he learned from Gaia and starry Ouranos that he was destined to be overcome by his own son,” (Theogony)
I always thought it kind of strange that Kronos then ate his daughters, since they can’t, by the very structure of the prophecy, be a direct threat. But they can assist their brothers. Even if Kronos hadn’t swallowed them and even treated them exemplary, there’s no guarantee they wouldn’t have been appalled at their baby brothers being swallowed, and/or sided with Rhea. So down they go.
Another point is here also that it’s his own son - the mother doesn’t matter. Of course, the simple solution of not having sex with her at all is clearly impossible, so he persists...
And his solution is something no one else has done before. Even his father “only” imprisoned the older siblings, which Kronos could have done himself. But he knows his children could be released from Tartaros, so instead he chooses an action that, by its very intent, hopefully will nullify any offspring. If we consider that these gods are Deathless, and very, very hard to meaningfully kill, this might be one of the methods by which it can actually be achieved, but even that is clearly not simple or quick, since they end up rescued.
Next is Zeus;
“[...] for very wise children were destined to be born of her, first the maiden bright-eyed Tritogeneia, equal to her father in strength and in wise understanding; but afterwards she was to bear a son of overbearing spirit[,] king of gods and men.” (Theogony, Hesiod - another translation uses “overmastering” instead of “overbearing”)
With Metis first. Here, the point isn’t the father (aside from that the daughter born of Metis will match her father in strength and wisdom). Rather it’s Metis herself, presumably regardless of whoever the father is, who will bring a son who will be powerful and apparently bad ruler.
Zeus chooses to mimic his father, but compared to Kronos, and possibly because Zeus knows what Kronos did, he does it better than his father did. Metis does not escape (I’d go with that he sort of absorbs her, in some way). Athena, of course, survives to be born, perhaps because Metis ensures her survival (a more metaphorical armour given her, if you will).
Zeus couldn’t have chosen to just not have sex with Metis and leave her, before any children at all, or after Athena was born. Metis’ first son will spell terrible things for his own rule and reasonably everyone else too. She could willingly refrain from sex, of course (and might even have been willing to!), but we all know that doesn’t necessarily guarantee she might not have ended up having said son anyway.
(For me in my fics, I also leaned on the fact that Zeus is young in this instance, they have just won a ten year war that would’ve ended terribly if the new Olympians had lost, and here is immediately a threat that promises more of the same - he just lashes out, no real thought to it compared to Kronos.)
Obviously, this is still a terrible thing to do (especially because/if Zeus does it more effectively than Kronos did), but at least Metis can defend herself as it happens, compared to defenseless babies.
“For in their midst wise-counselled Themis told that it was ruled of fate that the sea-goddess should bring forth a son, of strength mightier than his father, whose hand should launch a shaft more powerful than the bolt of thunder or the fearsome trident, if she wed with Zeus or with his brothers.” (Isthmian Ode 8, Pindar)
Then there is Thetis. This time, it’s not just one or the other parent that matters; both of them do. Thetis specifically carries the same potential as Metis does, but it also relies on the strength of the father - the logical solution can for once be followed. Both Zeus and Poseidon refrain from having sex with her.
But, it can’t just be left at that. Thetis could have sex (willing or unwilling) with someone, or marry someone, who could still produce a son strong enough to be stronger than Zeus. So, to ensure that doesn’t happen, Thetis can’t be left alone to her own devices; the man who will produce this one son with Thetis must be someone guaranteed not to be stronger than the gods in general, or the three sons of Kronos in particular.
Hence, she has to marry a mortal.
I do really like the detail that Thetis rejects Zeus specifically because Hera is her foster mother, but that can easily exist parallel to the prophecy and as soon as Zeus finds out about it, saddling Thetis with a mortal becomes not just a solution to a personal insult, but cosmically important.
On the other hand, Thetis is still a goddess nymph, so she gets as noble a mortal as can be found.
Some brief extra discussion of Zeus and Athena as it occurred to me:
Going back to Athena and Zeus here at the end, you could be exceedingly cynical and say Zeus deliberately made her a “favourite” to ensure she is kept as docile as possible and has no reason to make any threatening noise.
I don’t accept this, because firstly, Zeus has no reason to. Athena alone isn’t a cosmic threat, (accepting that only a male can hold the throne) no matter that she is as strong and wise as he is. She would only be a potential threat if her little brother of Metis had been born. He never is. Zeus has made sure of it, and while Athena very pointedly joins Hera in her uprising against Zeus, it certainly doesn’t succeed (and I wouldn’t expect it to necessarily succeed if she’d attach herself to one of her brothers, since the point is very much Metis’ son).
Athena as (one of, with Apollo as the other) Zeus’ favourite is definitely meant to be genuine, with no backhanded reasons behind it.
